Advertisement

We need your help now

Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.

You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.

If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.

Thinglass via Shutterstock

Column I'm a mother of a special needs child and a pro-choice advocate

Tracey Holsgrove explains the agony of contemplating how to proceed with her pregnancy after learning of her baby’s condition – and why she is a firm pro-choice advocate.

I HAVE A child with special needs as some of you will know. She has Dandy-Walker Syndrome, a rare neurological condition that in her case has left her with significant developmental delay, she is still in nappies and cannot walk or stand unaided. She is nearly six years old. Our daughter’s condition was diagnosed prenatally and I have written before about that awful time in our lives.

She was diagnosed at 29 weeks of pregnancy and initially the foetal anomaly specialist we were seeing was concerned that she had Edwards’ Syndrome. We opted to have an amniocentesis carried out as I needed to know if our baby was going to live, if she was ever going to come home with us. It was done that same day and we had a few days then to wait for the results. Thankfully the amnio came back fine and her chromosomes are normal.

We were allowed to make our own choice

While we were waiting for the amnio to be done, a lovely and very gentle midwifery specialist sat with us, letting us talk, cry, ask as many questions as we wanted. One of us – I can’t remember if it was my husband or me – asked what life expectancy the baby would have if she did have Edwards’. Very gently and clearly, she explained to us that every case is so different but that nine out of every ten babies born with Edwards’ Syndrome do not survive beyond their first year and that many do not live beyond the first month.

Contemplating the prospect of this was agony. At no time were we pressured into considering a termination. I did ask if the pregnancy would go to term and she explained to us that there was no reason for it not to but that if we wanted to deliver the baby early then we would have to go to England. I don’t recall what I said next but I do remember her holding my hand and saying that some women preferred not to go through the remainder of the pregnancy (remember I was 29 weeks at this point) as they felt it would be too painful dealing with the well-meaning but heart-wrenching comments “ooh when are you due?” “oh you won’t find it coming now” etc all the comments that are made to largely pregnant women every day. That hadn’t occurred to me but I could imagine how distressing that could be.

My visceral reaction was that I wanted my daughter born in Ireland and the midwife smiled and said whatever we wanted to do was absolutely fine. So it was our choice. OUR CHOICE.

No one has the right to tell someone else to terminate – or continue – a pregnancy

I am very open about my pro-choice beliefs, always have been. But I have encountered a number of people who are shocked (their word) that I support the campaign for termination in cases of fatal foetal abnormality. If it had turned out that our daughter did have Edwards’ I don’t know what we would have decided. But it would have been our choice. Not the State’s, not a doctor’s and most certainly not a pressure group who feel they have the right to tell other couples what to do.

I don’t consider my role/circumstance/position as the proud mother of an adored and beloved child with special needs to be incompatible with my pro-choice beliefs. No one has the right to make anyone else terminate a pregnancy. Equally no one has the right to stop other people from making the choice that is right for them and their circumstances.

Tracey Holsgrove is a blogger and mother of a special needs child. This article first appeared on Musings and Chatterings and was reproduced with the author’s permission.

Readers like you are keeping these stories free for everyone...
A mix of advertising and supporting contributions helps keep paywalls away from valuable information like this article. Over 5,000 readers like you have already stepped up and support us with a monthly payment or a once-off donation.

View 102 comments
Close
102 Comments
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Shanti Om
    Favourite Shanti Om
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:16 PM

    Well said. Being pro choice does not mean that you think all pregnancies should end in abortion, it means that you respect whatever decision the woman carrying the baby makes – because it’s not our business to interfere in such an intensely personal decision.

    436
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Stephen Ring
    Favourite Stephen Ring
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:16 PM

    My sympathies to anyone in that position. It’s a choice I’ll hopefully never have to make but neither would I try and deny her the right to make it.

    413
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Gerry Mccormack
    Favourite Gerry Mccormack
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:43 PM

    Why gave you to be so foolish? Grow up

    91
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Gearóid Ó Murchadha
    Favourite Gearóid Ó Murchadha
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:58 PM

    Who mentioned anything about murdering a child? Did you even read the article?

    183
    See 5 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Padriag O'Traged
    Favourite Padriag O'Traged
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 2:09 PM

    Ignore the Troll

    130
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Sheik Yahbouti
    Favourite Sheik Yahbouti
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 3:09 PM

    Gerry, these are the ‘pro life people’. People without a shred of empathy, sympathy, decency or charity. A1 top christians.

    128
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute sean
    Favourite sean
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 3:14 PM

    congrats on the more evil disgusting comment ever on the journal
    …and go learn how to spell “Its”

    39
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Gearóid Ó Murchadha
    Favourite Gearóid Ó Murchadha
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 3:24 PM

    Sean, I’m not sure whose comment you’re referring to but if you’re going to criticise someone’s spelling you should at least use the correct grammar! :)

    52
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute sean
    Favourite sean
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 3:48 PM

    sorry comment was directed at i’ts justwrong .

    21
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Conor Buggy
    Favourite Conor Buggy
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:22 PM

    Tracey many thanks for such a well written article telling us your families story. I sincerely hope that the comments which follow will share my sentiment. The choice was yours and the decision you and your partner made were what you both wanted.

    Pro choice does not mean pro abortion, it simply means that the choice should be available without pressure or moralistic agendas to our citizens.

    Again thank you for your article.

    406
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute John F
    Favourite John F
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:28 PM

    Quote- Conor Buggy: “The choice was yours and the decision you and your partner made were what you both wanted”

    But coming from a pro choice stance the partner will or should never have a say? Do you think that that’s fair and just?

    22
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Conor Buggy
    Favourite Conor Buggy
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:33 PM

    You imply that she could ignore her partner. Which she could have as it is her body, but then that would not denote a loving partnership. Every case is different. I should perhaps have phrased it “ye made the decision” instead as that was what I was implying. It was their decision and their choice and no one else should be allowed to influence or dictate to them.

    203
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute My Thoughts
    Favourite My Thoughts
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:43 PM

    It’s a pity people like you are not in Government …. You story was lovely to read and u deserve an award for doing what you do for your daughter.
    I absolutely agree that nobody, especially the Irish government, should hold the right of weather someone can have an abortion or not. I am a mum also, I planned my pregnancy and had no problems thank god, however, many people do not plan… They range from young girls to grown women… Why should they not hold the right to terminate the foetus if that is their wish. For a 14 year old – if they have a child their life is finished…. They are given responsibilities they cannot uphold. Yes before I get slated- they should use protection – it’s 2013 … It happens.
    Then grown women that fall pregnant hold a huge risk of having a baby with Down’s syndrome…. If they find out during pregnancy is it not their right to decide the life of that child?
    As I always say…. Abortion is freely available to the Irish …. It’s just across the sea…. But is it not OUR right to decide if we want one ? Why should the government decide??
    This country is so backward it embarrasses me.

    162
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Paddy
    Favourite Paddy
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:20 PM

    Good article. Tough tough decision to make with so many things to consider. Quality of life for the little baby and the parents etc

    159
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Stephen
    Favourite Stephen
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 3:32 PM

    No one has the right to tell someone to continue a pregnancy ,or terminate one . Couldn’t agree more with that statement .

    95
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Trish Flood
    Favourite Trish Flood
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 5:35 PM

    I am also the mother of 2 children with disabilities. My children have autism, which is not diagnosable until between 2 and 3 years of age. Had I know they were going to autistic, I would still have had them, but that because I am in a stable relationship and we were adults with our own home and the time was right. I agree that abortion is a personal choice for the parents involved. I have personally met Tracey and her beautiful daughter and for anyone to suggest that she is not wanted or loved is atrocious. Abortion is a complex issue, but it is also a very personal one. I wonder how many of those people who are against abortion would cope if they had to live our lives, with all the financial, emotional and physical stress that comes with disabiity?

    88
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Arlette Lyons
    Favourite Arlette Lyons
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 6:04 PM

    Why do people always throw in the Down Syndrome situation. Fatal abnormalties HAS NOTHING to do with Down syndrome. We are not talking about special needs children or children with disabilities, We are talking about babys that have NO chance of living. Baby’s that will maybe live for a few mins and struggle to breath. Is this torture ok for the parents to watch their baby die ???? Tracey is a wonderful person and wonderful mother and speaks so lovingly about her daughter. I was never told to have a termination it was a choice. Just one thing @Jennifer Kehoe we have over one hundred families in our support group who have all had termnations for fatal abnormalties and NOT 1 of them terminated a baby with Dandy Walker!!!!

    87
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jennifer Kehoe
    Favourite Jennifer Kehoe
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 6:39 PM

    The reason people mention Downs Syndrome is perhaps because of the international seek and find eugenic efforts that are endemic in obstetrics now and which particularly targets DS. 92% of UK’s Special Olympians are missing today due to abortion. Denmark has an official policy to ERADICATE all Down Syndrome by 2030. This can ONlY be done by wiping out an entire category of people since it is impossible to prevent their conception. My little girl also has a major CHD. 50% of all children with CHD are aborted in UK. It would appear from UK and internationally that once we concede that any category of people are kill-able there is nowhere the line can be drawn.
    From your vast representation of 100 families it is not that amazing that you don’t have any Dandy-Walker parents since it is a very rare condition. The UK guidelines are that Termination if Pregnancy should be recommended in ALL CASES of DW. I had a pregnancy in UK and I am fully aware of the intense pressure to undergo diagnostic tests. My experience with families world wide is that a pre natal diagnosis more often than not leads to PRESSURE to abort a sick child. That some are not pressured (maybe because they are willing to abort and therefore no pressure is needed) does not take away from the fact that most ARE pressured.
    Down Syndrome is not a fatal condition. Edwards Syndrome is not necessarily an immediately fatal condition as Rick Santorum’s precious and gorgeous little girl Bella has proven in every day of her so far 5 years of smiling life.

    21
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Arlette Lyons
    Favourite Arlette Lyons
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 6:52 PM

    Jennifer you are right sometimes Edwards is not immediatley fatal like pataus which my baby had but our babies had loads of other medical issues along with the diganosis. Every diganosis is different.

    Also remember Jennifer we are not in the UK we are in Ireland we are seperate countries. Nobody in our group were ever pressured into having a terminations if anything they were given no advise support or and help whats so ever.

    Obyns have told us there are only about 8-9 fatal abnormalities and they don’t include Down syndrome or Dandy walker. We are talking about babies with no brains, no kidneys no vital organs for surviving its total different.
    I am 32 weeks pregnant myself now and was told I had a high chance of our baby having DS. We refused all testing as we would not terminate the pregnancy.

    58
    See 7 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Shanti Om
    Favourite Shanti Om
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 7:04 PM

    Eugenics only works if it is mandatory Jennifer.
    Not every woman would abort a child with a disability, many would choose to continue the pregnancy. It only becomes eugenics when the government removes the choice from the woman who is pregnant and forces her to abort, screaming about eugenics is almost like trying to compare abortion to the holocaust, it’s disingenuous and a blatant attempt to manipulate the emotions of those reading your comments.

    52
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jennifer Kehoe
    Favourite Jennifer Kehoe
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 8:47 PM

    Is there a magic gene in Irish blood that every single other country doesn’t have that protects us from moving beyond killing only those most deserving of being killed ie the most humble, the disabled unborn? Might that be Ireland’s Christian ethos? Long gone as is clearly illustrated by the comments on this page. There is no need to pressure a person to abort their child if the person is ASKING to abort their child. This most likely explains the seemingly lack of pressure felt by the members of your group since you are an abortion advocacy group.
    Dear Shanti…the efforts to make sure not a single child with Downs Syndrome slips under the radar, especially with the launch of the new early blood test to detect DS is nothing short of eugenics. Calling me names is undignified. I should certainly hope that people would feel some pang of emotion at the death of so so many children not considered worthy of living out even their short lives during which they could offer us all so much, since we are thinking, feeling beings as demonstrated by the stream of people leaving USA’s abortion industry in droves, bearing witness after witness after witness to how their psyche’s have been traumatised by the deaths of so many little ones. Yes, definitely eugenics. Not screaming, calm and cold eugenics.

    7
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Shanti Om
    Favourite Shanti Om
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 9:21 PM

    Please, point out where I called you anything besides your name.

    The fact that there is a test does not equal eugenics. Eugenics is where a state or government tries to eradicate a certain trait – like I said, just because a woman gets a positive doesn’t mean that she will abort and unless the government orders her to, it isn’t eugenics.

    37
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Mary Lyons
    Favourite Mary Lyons
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 9:27 PM

    Yes that is our wonderful daughter Arlette again. We as a family have discussed this issue. We know for sure that Arlette would NEVER NEVER have terminated her baby had she been told it had Downs Syndrome or Dandy Walker. Please google “trisomy 13 and d with a large cystic hygroma” and come back and tell me that you would want your wife ,or partner, or sister to go ahead with this pregnancy. I still have these details in my phone since 02/03/2012. I will never delete them. I had not got a clue what they meant and I am quite sure that those who are against termination under these circumstance have not got a clue either. That does not mean that you cannot look up the situation and then sit down and think about it. COME BACK AND TELL US TRUTHFULLY WHAT YOU WOULD DO. I am Arlettes Mother and I will seriously think about your View. I have to tell you that Arlette and her Husband Alan refused all sorts of tests in case they . would cause a spontaneous miscarriage. I await all your responses >

    35
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Arlette Lyons
    Favourite Arlette Lyons
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 10:04 PM

    Number 1 we are not an abortion advocacy group and number
    2 When you start with “killing of the disabled” you have totally lost my attention.

    Take care and best of luck and wishes to your daughter and her future.

    41
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Laura McDermott
    Favourite Laura McDermott
    Report
    May 24th 2013, 5:28 PM

    Jennifer the test exists no doubt to help a family prepare for having a special needs child. Not everyone is educated on it.

    7
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Laura McDermott
    Favourite Laura McDermott
    Report
    May 24th 2013, 5:29 PM

    Arlette and Mary- just ignore her, he’s clearly on a crusade that has nothing to do with TFMR whatsoever

    8
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Pierre Maanen
    Favourite Pierre Maanen
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 2:35 PM

    As a man I think that it is a human right to have a choice. The one’s who think different should put themselfs in the position of the mother. The time that the pope and cardinals can tell you what to do is long gone.
    Before the church pays the bill for the damage done by there PC (Pedofile Club) they should keep the mouth shut. Why the taxpayer must do this. The goverment can take the church belongings until the bill is paid. We have an Irish law and not a Canon law which can be twisted in every direction

    82
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Ignoreland
    Favourite Ignoreland
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:21 PM

    I don’t see why the quality of life a child can expect after birth should have anything to do with pro-choice arguments or the availability of abortion.

    All abortion arguments posit the right to life beginning at a certain point in the development of the fetus. E.g. if you say an abortion can be had before the 12 week period, then this ought to be so regardless of the quality of life of the child after birth. If you’re going to say that a fetus say with Down’s Syndrome can be terminated after this date then you have to say that all fetuses can be terminated after this date as this argument is grounded in the ‘free-will of the woman’ rather than the quality of life the child can expect. It’s not the poor quality of life the child can expect that “justifies” this argument but the free will of the woman using this argument to make her decision.

    33
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brenda Shields
    Favourite Brenda Shields
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:32 PM

    The point of this article is not aborting a foetus that might have a poor quality of life but having the choice to discontinue a foetus that will result in a child who will only survive a very short time. Only a parent in that position can say what choice they might make, I hope you are never in that position but unless you are how about you hold off on the judgement?

    169
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Ignoreland
    Favourite Ignoreland
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 1:46 PM

    You are misinterpreting my point.
    I am aware that the article is about choice. My argument is about choice too. My point is that if it is justifying it on the grounds of choice, it has to be available for all fetuses, not just ones with a poor quality of life, or with a lifespan of less than one year. If you’re going to justify abortion on the grounds of ‘choice’ then the law cannot decide for a woman which reasons are appropriate for her to contemplate when she is entitled to abort the fetus. I.e. the law cannot consistently say that abortion is readily available for up to 10 weeks, but beyond that only if the fetus has an abnormality that will result in a poor quality of life. Please read my argument before attacking me.

    30
    See 2 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Ignoreland
    Favourite Ignoreland
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 5:57 PM

    Also, if you would actually read my 2 comments and explanations, instead of just red-thumbing me automatically, you would see that I am pro-choice.

    9
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Sailtee
    Favourite Sailtee
    Report
    May 27th 2013, 11:22 AM

    ‘Discontinue a foetus’ – what a twisted statement. We need to face up to some realities here. How are these babyies aborted? I’d genuinely like to know? Are they injected into the heart (v v painful) to cause a heart attack?

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jennifer Kehoe
    Favourite Jennifer Kehoe
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 4:18 PM

    This article has caused a lot of genuine distress for many of us who are parents of Dandy-Walker children. The implication is that it really makes no difference whether our children are dead or alive as long as it was our personal ‘choice’. That these children have an innate dignity and value regardless of ability or disability doesn’t appear to come into it, simply the mother’s choice. To think that any mother would consider her child’s life her personal property to decide to ‘keep’ or discard is chilling and very very hurtful to parents of children with disability. My child has Dandy Walker and other health issues and has contributed to this world more than many of omission with it all going for us can claim to have contributed a fraction of. Also be aware that internationally the norm on receiving a pre natal diagnosis of DW is pressure to abort the child…not an offer of choice…pressure to abort.

    33
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute PMo
    Favourite PMo
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 6:01 PM

    Well said Jennifer…I’m a teacher in England and I was filling in some of my older students with the whole debate about abortions in Ireland. I have one pupil with a disability in the class and he turned around to me and said ‘I would hate to think that my parents wanted or thought about having an abortion had they known I would have a disability’. I would love to see if any of you would have the nerve or heart to look at this bright, talented young lad in the eye and start talking to him about pro choice!

    21
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Caroline Stones
    Favourite Caroline Stones
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 6:42 PM

    If hes in your classroom & able to articulate those kind of statements then OBVIOUSLY he shouldnt be dragged into this kind of a debate. Read the article before making ridiculous comments like this one. Dandy Walkers is not a learning disability & the fact that you are a teacher but you’re spouting this “logic” is truly frightening to me.

    75
    See 6 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute PMo
    Favourite PMo
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 6:51 PM

    I never said he had a learning difficulty, he has a physical disability. We were discussing abortions in the UK and Ireland and he made a contribution to the discussion. He is allowed to have his say too!

    18
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Shanti Om
    Favourite Shanti Om
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 6:59 PM

    Jennifer – please read the article before judging.. The author never had any intentions of aborting.

    Pmo. Ask that kid how he would like living in a care home for his entire life. Because if the woman didn’t abort but put him up for adoption then that’s how he would live, as disgraceful as it is, adoptive parents get to say “no thanks” to special needs kids and the majority of them do. A kid with special needs requires a little extra love, affection and attention as I am sure you are both aware, they don’t get that in a care home.

    Which is better, to never become conscious or to suffer for your whole life?

    If the woman (like the author of this piece) is comfortable with caring for a special needs kid she will, but I don’t suppose it ever occurred to you that not every woman can, and some may see the abortion as sparing the child from a life of misery and rejection.

    53
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jennifer Kehoe
    Favourite Jennifer Kehoe
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 8:58 PM

    Caroline, Dandy Walker (not Walkers, Walker is a doctor’s name, as is Dandy) can actually be a learning disability. Outcomes cover a wide spectrum and cannot be predicted before birth, all the more shocking that British Obstetricians are instructed to recommend abortion in EVERY CASE. Anybody is entitled to comment on the issue of the taking of some people’s lives by some other people.
    Dear Shanti,
    I have read this article many times as have many Dandy Walker parents across the English speaking world who are horrified by the suggestion that the value of their child’s lives depended on such a tenuous concept as their personal ‘choice’. The truth is that those children are valuable EVEN IF NOBODY thought they were worth anything. Our value as human beings isn’t conferred by the choice of someone else, it’s there already and can only be unjustly removed. Read the comments properly before YOU judge.

    10
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Shanti Om
    Favourite Shanti Om
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 9:23 PM

    Funny Jennifer, because the author of the piece clearly stated that she wouldn’t abort. Yet here you are trying to make a whole heap of insinuations based upon your own ideas.
    What the author said was that while there was no way that she would abort – she’s not in a place to judge another woman who feels that it’s too much for her to take. Clearly you feel you are in a position to judge, as you have already done so.

    50
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Nick Beard
    Favourite Nick Beard
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 11:49 PM

    “I have one pupil with a disability in the class and he turned around to me and said ‘I would hate to think that my parents wanted or thought about having an abortion had they known I would have a disability’.” I think we all would. But if he had had the kind of parents who wanted to have an abortion, but were legally forced to continue a pregnancy, would that have made him feel any better?

    24
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Laura McDermott
    Favourite Laura McDermott
    Report
    May 24th 2013, 5:35 PM

    Jennifer her point was that being pro choice does not mean being pro abortion, regardless of circumstances. You are intentionally misinterpreting the article and that’s not fair

    8
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Mary Lyons
    Favourite Mary Lyons
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 10:31 PM

    iT IS 1 HOUR NOW SINCE i MADE MY COMMENTS. I AM STILL WAITING FOR ALL YOU “PRO LIFERS’ TO TELL ME WHAT YOU WOULD DO IN ARLETTES CIRCUMSTANCES!

    26
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Daisy Chainsaw
    Favourite Daisy Chainsaw
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 10:59 PM

    Tracey, thank you for your article. It shows what a lot of us have been saying all along – that being pro-choice doesn’t automatically default to abortion.

    I wish you and your family well.

    25
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Clàr Ní Coinmheadh
    Favourite Clàr Ní Coinmheadh
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 4:44 PM

    Meant to say she does not regret her daughter being born. Not regret aborting as previously mistyped

    24
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Zoe Daly
    Favourite Zoe Daly
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 2:29 PM

    The lives of many unborn children with Downs Syndrome, & other conditions, is happening already in many European countries.
    For this to be happening is nothing short, of a human rights outrage.
    We are on very shaky moral ground here.

    23
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Dave
    Favourite Dave
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 2:35 PM

    You assume all people believe morality to be universal when many believe it to be relativistic, if at all.

    65
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Penelope Wizzlehurst
    Favourite Penelope Wizzlehurst
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 2:57 PM

    Hi Zoe, just wondering, how many unwanted special needs children have you adopted?

    110
    See 10 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Zoe Daly
    Favourite Zoe Daly
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 2:58 PM

    So you think for an unborn child with – say, Downs Syndrome or mabey some other condition, to have its life terminated, is ok than?
    - this is a similar idealogy of the nazis.

    15
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Dave
    Favourite Dave
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 3:05 PM

    Penelope, if she adopted 10, would you still ask that ridiculous question?

    16
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Penelope Wizzlehurst
    Favourite Penelope Wizzlehurst
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 3:20 PM

    if she adopted 10 I’d say hats off to her for being the only pro-life person I’ve ever met who isn’t a complete hypocrite. It’s all about saving the babies..until they’re out of the womb right?

    Zoe, thanks for not answering the question. Enough said.

    103
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Dave
    Favourite Dave
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 3:31 PM

    When you turn around and say “I’ve had 10 abortions”, I’ll say hats off for being one of the few abortion advocates who practices what they preach.

    Something like that, some about love and compassion and all them difficult and messy socially applicable things, right?

    10
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute The Descolada
    Favourite The Descolada
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 3:43 PM

    “Abortion advocates”, as you put it, don’t go around telling everyone to have abortions.
    They advocate abortion as a choice to be left up to the people involved.

    107
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Pierre Maanen
    Favourite Pierre Maanen
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 4:43 PM

    I don’t say OK, but it is the parents who desite. They are the peole who have to deal with it.
    What had the nazi’s to do with it. They didn’t leave the parents the choice. And what do you know about the nazis, except what you learn in your history books, printed by a flemish nazi.

    56
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Shanti Om
    Favourite Shanti Om
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 6:52 PM

    Leave it to Zoe to Godwin the thread..
    If they don’t abort, and don’t raise the child themselves then that child goes into care – their chances of being adopted are appallingly low because when you’re adopting you get to reject a special needs kid if its not what you want..
    Lovely eh? You can pick and choose your kid if you’re adopting, if you’re giving birth you take what you get..

    38
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Zoe Daly
    Favourite Zoe Daly
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 8:02 PM

    Tracey (above) has written a moving & thought provoking article.
    I don’t disagree with all of what she says, & its obvious how much she loves her child.

    A member of my family has Downs Syndrome. – I know this is different to what is being diccussed in the article above.
    But it is a reality that in many European countries, there is a high rate of termination of unborn children with Downs & other conditions.
    So much so, that the numbers of people with Downs is decreasing.
    and thats not right either.

    5
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Shanti Om
    Favourite Shanti Om
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 10:16 PM

    No one is saying that it is right Zoe. But what are the alternatives?

    The woman could give the child up for adoption. She could abandon the child to the care system, its chances of being adopted extremely low as there’s plenty of kids in need of parents and they get to refuse kids with special needs if they want (and most do). A life in care, lovely..

    Or she could martyr herself, take on the baby that she doesn’t want, all to make the moral police happy, in some cases this works out great – but not all. There could be resentment and anger which is not healthy for the child. Some people aren’t cut out to parent at the best of times, I would pity the child born to them, but if that child had special needs too – it doesn’t bear thinking about..

    Or she could abort – some may do it for what the moral police consider selfish reasons, others may do it as they feel they are sparing the child. There’s myriad reasons why someone would choose to abort – its wrong to assume that the motives are all the same.

    23
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Pamela
    Favourite Pamela
    Report
    May 23rd 2013, 11:43 AM

    Add to that if she is already a mother of children who have needs, possibly special needs and to give birth to please the forced birth brigade would possibly tip the entire family into crisis…. I am totally pro choice, I have given birth to three thankfully healthy children but I would consider all my options if I was in any of the situations mentioned above. Brilliant article, humane unlike the anti choice position of foetus friendly, woman and child not so much.

    10
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Martin Malone
    Favourite Martin Malone
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 6:08 PM

    I sympathise with your position Tracey, we are in a very similar situation ourselves. But we differ with your opinion on Abortion.

    However, I wish you well and hope you get services for you, your family need.

    16
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute peepingass
    Favourite peepingass
    Report
    May 23rd 2013, 2:42 PM

    The most striking phrases I have heard and seen in the media in the past few weeks are as follows:

    1. “…… sucked out of the womb and destroyed….” (Dail committee).
    2. “….Snip its spine…Snip its neck….” (Newspaper – abortion-murder doctor).

    There has been more fuss made about the recent shooting and dumping of a few greyhounds.

    5
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Morgan
    Favourite Morgan
    Report
    May 22nd 2013, 7:14 PM

    I think it’s just wrong could drop the it’s

    4
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Tori Amri
    Favourite Tori Amri
    Report
    May 23rd 2013, 11:18 PM

    I just want to share my experience and

    testimony here, prophet salifu is definitely

    one of a kind!! A great man/person to know.

    healer to all broken-heart, fix broken home ,

    can stop a divorce process ,can pray for you

    to have your own child,he is a master of

    love-spell which is for a better life . please

    you can contact him via :

    prophetsalifu@yahoo.com
    angela

    1
Submit a report
Please help us understand how this comment violates our community guidelines.
Thank you for the feedback
Your feedback has been sent to our team for review.
JournalTv
News in 60 seconds