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THE TWO UNIONS representing almost all of Ireland’s secondary school teachers have rejected the new ‘Haddington Road’ pay proposals.
The Association of Secondary Teachers in Ireland (ASTI) and the Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI) both said the latest proposals were not sufficiently different from the original Croke Park 2 deal, which both unions rejected in ballots.
The ASTI had voted 84-16 against the original deal, while the TUI had rejected it 86-14. Members of both unions also voted overwhelmingly for strike action if the government pursued with plans to cut their pay or worsen their working conditions.
The revised Haddington Road agreement maintains the proposal to scrap teachers’ substitution allowances, worth just under €1,600 a year, but had proposed to add this amount to teachers’ annual salaries through pay increases in 2016 and 2017.
The new proposals would also see the salary scales for ‘NQTs’ – newly-qualified teachers who entered the profession since 2011 – given a slight increase, to offset disproportionate salary cuts in the past. They would still be paid less than more long-serving equivalent staff, however.
However, other prominent clauses – including the mandatory extension of the working week, which is difficult to apply to the education sector because of the limit on classroom time, and the withdrawal of cover for most types of leave – remained on the table.
ASTI general secretary Pat King said teachers had rejected the Croke Park 2 deal for many of the reasons that remained part of the revised proposals, including the scrapping of the supervision allowance and the right to have a substitute teacher appointed for cover in the event of a bereavement.
“In addition, teachers are aggrieved that after pay cuts averaging 14 per cent, and significant additional work and flexibility given under the Croke Park Agreement, the Government is again targeting teachers and other public sector workers,” he said.
His TUI counterpart John MacGabhann said his executive had rejected the deal because the new proposals did not address members’ concerns about school capacities, and would not allay the concerns that teachers had about a growing workload.
“Notwithstanding some welcome measures in regard to casualisation, the proposals do not go far enough in addressing the inequalities suffered by recent entrants to the teaching and lecturing professions,” he said.
The rejection by the two secondary unions further deepens the divide between primary and secondary teachers: the INTO, the sole union representing the primary sector, yesterday said its members ought to approve the new proposals.
It had decided against issuing a recommendation in the first ballot, where its members voted against the Croke Park 2 proposals by 69.5 to 30.5 per cent.
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Can we stop naming deals after the locations they’re made? It’s bizarre.
They’re not treaties.
We won’t hear anymore about this for 3months at the end of this month.cos they’ll all be on fully paid holidays.my hearth goes out to them.
“they all” won’t.
Oh, and “fully paid holidays” don’t exist. Teachers who are lucky enough to have a full time job are getting paid what amounts to a deferment of their wages from the previous 9 months of work.
Is your problem people getting paid or having to actually take responsibility for your own kids?
Nelly learn how to spell please.
The benburb street agreement
22 hours (max teaching hours per week) * 34 weeks = Salary / 26 weeks = fortnightly pay. Holidays exist but “holiday pay” does not exist in the teaching profession.
Thousands of teachers do not have the full teaching hours quota = significant lower pay.
Thousands of qualified teachers who cant get jobs are subs and do not get a red cent during holidays.
▲▲Someone who knows what they’re talking about. Thank God. A lot of bitterness on this thread from people who haven’t a clue what the reality actually is..
Lads it’s k to spell stuf wrong on here.u don’t av to correct me it’s not skool take some time off.in dis n age most people rite n txt lingo,relax sur yis r near n hols,n dats not much f n argument 4 wat I said bout paid hols.sayin my spelling is bad.i Avnet slagged you of.
@ John correct me if I’m wrong,but do sub teachers not get paid a hell of a lot more,to composite for not gettin hol pay
If that was true, they would be entitled to claim the dole during the summer months, as they would be “out of work”. Teachers are paid for 12 months of the year. At least have the decency to admit you get great holidays, don’t try to hide behind some word play
Nelly just throw away the shovel. I haven’t worked for the last eight days but my last paycheque was 219 euro for two weeks. I will be on the dole for the summer and gone by October if September is dry. That’s fine though because the great Minister Quinn told me to leave the country.
I wish the unions made it more about the conditions out there such as the leaks, 30 computers for 800 kids, classrooms packed so you can’t walk around and check work. It’s shocking the state of some of the schools but who cares ‘they get loads of holidays.’ The begrudging nature and stupidity out there is beyond a joke!
It can’t be that bad, otherwise our great leaders,(who after all are mostly teachers),would surely be standing up for their former colleagues. They obviously think the teacher crowd have for it way too handy too!!
What’s a treaty if it’s not a deal?
I was wondering which teacher hater would bring up the politician being a teacher being a politician argument. These arguments really show how Irish society is turning. A state of begrudgers who would rather their children feel unhappy than see someone get a holiday. People who would rather make fun of a profession than turn on the very people who are making the country miserable. ‘Adults’ who actually think that education is a joke subject and inconsequential. If children are hearing this at home then it’ll be tough in a future classroom.
Will that be a big job to take your hearth out?gas heating I suppose.
Your suggestions Brian so? Good enough for Posh & Becks .. Good enough for me
It must be very demoralising to be a young teacher in this country these days, low starting salary, lack of government investment in facilities, no certainty of employment, I imagine a lot of the good ones are emigrating.
To be honest it is. I have done four years in college. I finished my exams last Tuesday and I’m qualified to teach maths chemistry and science. I was told by a lecturer of a school in north Dublin that advertised for a science teacher and got 300 applicants. I attended a recruitment day about 6 weeks ago for the UK. They flew me over for an interview and i had the job before I boarded the flight home. pay is alright about the same as here if you are lucky enough to get full time hours. Its a shame that after four years in university receiving free tuition and a grant on top that the only way I can contribute to the country is to claim the dole. pretty frustrating
Well said Nelly what a greedy delusional bunch- sack them all I say ! There are thousands of young graduates just waiting to replace them. Irish teachers have the highest salaries & the shortest working week in Europe ( + pensions!)
Nelly was taught to spell by a sub standard teacher!
Hopefully Louise you can send a few bob back to the lower paid in the private sector who paid for your education & grants!!!!
Having done low paid work for the last four summers im glad to be leaving it behind. Im not staying here to waste my degree. Its not my fault i cant get a job relevant to my degree here
Gerry Murphy, you are wrong. Irish teachers are ranked 5th in the salary they earn in Europe, they also rank 5th in the number of hours they teach per year and they rank 1st in the number of students they have in front of them. By disseminating wrong information without checking your facts first you prove that Irish people believe any old shite as long as it keeps being repeated! Shame on you
If it was such a great number they’d still be teaching. Not saying they’re any better at politics, but we got the government we elected. Our great rulers have succeeded in setting private sector workers against public sector and distracted us all from the real agenda which is the drive to the bottom.
Nelly you know you have won the argument when the only thing the can attack you is over a typo.
Bill ur rite dey cudnt argue bout d hols r how cushy der job is so dey go 4 my spelling n grammar.dey forget I’m not 1 f der pupils n dey ain’t at work
Bla, bla, bla , just got on with the job or go to the uk
Nelly, you have just had a severe telling off for your spelling. 100 lines.
Don’t worry about the reaction, the ASTI position on these talks has been ridiculous all along.
More like the overpaid heads of the union are worried about their crazy salaries coming under scrutiny than anything else.
Thank you Nelly you just made my day :) axuly de fakt dat I kant spel is a reflextion on a usles techer
Think your been “economical” with the truth Liz “
Liz…..even if your “5th” as you claim………what the hell are you moaning about??? Your lot have their head stuck up their A…! Times have changed “lizzy”! Get a job in the private sector to experience real life…..
Ah yeah…. there’s a lot of tripe assumptions and misinformation about alright.
Gerry – just where do you stand when private sector wages are driven down? That’s what always happens when public sector wages get hit. Will you be happy? So while govt have managed to drive a wedge between public and private sectors there are many who don’t even see that by directing their ire across at each other the govt can stand back and watch while they have many areas where they could make differences.
And before you ask Gerry, yes I’m a teacher – but no, I don’t have a job after being made redundant from a private sector job of over 12 years.
You’re right though – people should experience both sides before being rigid with their commentary. What’s your teaching experience?
Nelly – I don’t mind your spelling, but you haven’t really made any point – just expressed limited opinion. My opinions change with evidence – I doubt yours would.
For the people here that are having a right laugh at education and teachers you haven’t replied to any of my comments. You laugh at the girl who is emigrating and you tell people to cop on and deal with the problems. You think it’s great craic to have a laugh at being uneducated.
This infantile level you have stooped to shows you can’t have children in the education system. If you do then shame on you. The future of the country is terrible with idiots like you lot going to procreate. Jesus it’s bad enough having one of you on a classroom.
And punctuate.
All I said is that ye will be on holiday soon for 3months,and also I asked a question which was,do sub teachers get paid more to composite them not gettin paid during the summer?i got a load of red thumbs but no answer.another thing I wanna ask is what’s the story with teachers retiring early and then been taking back on as subs?theres something wrong there.and if your gona slag people on their punctuation cop on to yourself,your better of sayin nothin.thats not contributing to this debate it’s childish,you’re not in school now I’m a big boy now and I think il get by ok if bad grammar and punctuation is all I’ve to worry about
I answered you. I gave you my total pay for a fortnight work and the I said I would be on the dole for the summer. I also mentioned another few things but as with any argument people will only educate themselves on the facts that suit them!
How many hours did you do that week to get paid 219?
Teachers’ salaries are based on contact hours. So a teacher quite simply gets paid, not based on work they don’t do but on the direct and measurable work that they do do.
We’re far in a way above the contact hours of a lot of European and OECD countries. And in terms of our payrate, on a per hour basis we’re well behind.
European averages are fine to look at but certain things need to be taken into account. just a quick look through min and max salaries of certain countries shows how futile an argument it is to invoke the “european averages” argument.
For example, a quick look at starting and max salaries for some countries included in making up that average shows:
country min/max
Slovakia 8860 11996
Romania 5024 14205
Poland 9021 14992
Hungary 8598 14722
Latvia 6257 6512
Lithuania 6155 11341
Czech Republic 13412 16201
Estonia 10308 15066
Croatia 13394 15950
So now, there are 2 ways of looking at it – removing these countries from the calculation or accepting that if you’re invoking european averages then why only for us? Surely for the above listed countries too?
When you look at the data what you will find by a proper examination of it is Ireland’s teaching salaries are right about the average of comparable countries. And that’s even taking out some of the higher outliers too (Luxembourg and Liechtenstein)
Not only are we around the average already but we are well above the average in terms of contact hours worked. From that point of view, in order to be more “average” what we really need to be doing is REDUCING working time and or INCREASING salaries. Which is the exact opposite of what this deal proposes.
11 hours for two weeks. That was my fortnightly pay after tax, USC, and two pensions. It changes every two weeks but I’d never get more than 15 hours. On top of that I take a team for football and make lessons for my classes and correct work. I’m not complaining as i’m lucky but when idiots come on here and laugh and joke at people who are emigrating then shame in them! They are a joke and that is why this country is ruined!
The same could be said for teachers lookin down on everyone and correcting spelling and punctuation.thats not addin to a debate.the view that most people have about teachers is that it’s a cushy job,easy hours and long holidays.in any other profession people would agree but straight away teachers jump to the defence with the,if its that easy why aren’t you doin it or slag off grammar.can ya no just admit you’ve excellent hours,no stress,if your full time it’s a job for life regardless if you’re any good at your job.and great holidays
If “most people” think that it doesn’t make it true. And it might be most people you know but it’s not most people I’ve known (before or after my teacher training)
If you were to measure an architect’s job based on the couple of hours they spend on site for a job then you might think that’s a fairly serious hourly rate too.
No stress – I have no response, if you think that, then you won’t change your mind.
Great holidays – can you suggest an alternative? Kids need time off and just because kids aren’t in front of teachers doesn’t mean they aren’t working. I’d love to hear a comprehensively thought out alternative that makes sense. That would actually add to the debate way more than your original comment.
Job for life regardless of ability – I absolutely agree, there are teachers who are weak – and shouldn’t be teaching. I’d love to see a situation where a valid set of metrics could be depended on to measure this – but again, there has never been a comprehensive suggestion that could not easily be manipulated. I also think that public servants are excessively and disproportionately protected in their jobs – I don’t think that extends to teaching really as number of pupils is directly linked to teacher numbers. In other areas however there may be some deserved targeting.
I’d be very interested in possible suggestions you have as mentioned above.
Give up Tony. Nelly will ask questions then ignore the answer when it doesn’t suit. The no stress one just shows really. I stopped reading after that.
Louise
Surely it didn’t take you four years in University to learn that a degree does not entitle you to a job! In the Private Sector we have known that since the foundation of the State. If you have obtained a position in the UK then surely that experience will stand to you when a permanent vacancy arises back home. Keep your head down and stop whining.
Tony you’re a man that talks sense.i never said anything about how well teachers were paid or cutting holidays.all I said is its a cushy job with great holidays with little or no stress,we agree on bad teaching and security of jobs alright
Utter rubbish
Good contribution there Gerry – what is “utter rubbish” and why?
I’m glad the secondary unions are recommending rejection. This is really just a very mildly tweaked version of CP2.
The increase in hours and further cuts to substitution would have a massive negative impact on the functioning of schools. The few scraps for NQTs were pitiful and the lack of any sort of attempt to restore a promotional structure was a considerable ‘oversight’.
A lot of the biggest problems with this are unwieldy to explain to the layman, so no, I wouldn’t anticipate much public support for teacher’s position. The danger is that the routine vilification of teachers in the last few years has got us to a point where perceived public support or lack thereof is not a mitigating factor in our decisions on which industrial action to take. Coupled with INTO recommending acceptance, things could get very messy in the near future.
But if you want to protect the remains of our education profession, maybe it’s time to get messy.
Did you see how quick they ran for cover over the bus strike. There is nothing to fear from this government if the unions fight their corner.
Which, many people would think, isn’t a good thing.
Anybody who is not behind teachers’ struggle here should spend some time in a classroom and then see how they feel about it. It is physically, emotionally and intellectually exhausting to be a good teacher, and they are never paid well enough.
Delighted!! United we stand!
And united you fail,
Just legislate. Knock their wages down to the European average. You know. “Benchmark” them. They like benchmarking.
Then benchmark our conditions as well please, e.g. reduce our class sizes improve our infrastructure, shorten our class contact time, give us more opportunities at career progression and pay us for extra-curricular. It’s not just about pay Vincent. Our conditions have been obliterated since 2008.
Very well said Mark.
Mark- you still have a job since 2008. Lots of people don’t. Welcome to the real world.
And people with a job have the right to protect their pay and conditions ‘vincent’
“Werejammin”- not when their employer is bankrupt, no they don’t.
Just because I have a job doesn’t mean I should accept any conditions just to keep me in a job. That is pure Dickensian codswallop. The real world has hit most teachers. 14-20% cut in salary, longer working hours, more responsibilities and nearly 3,000 job losses. I’d call that real world.
If the employer is bsnkrupt howcome its handing out 620 million in foreign aid this year vincent? Still repeating the same lies are we?
By 3,000 job losses what exactly do you mean, Mark?
The longer working hours must be rough. How’s July looking for you? And August?
A job “loss” is a compulsory redundancy. How many of those have their been, Mark?
“Werejammin”- you might be happy to take the food out of starving Africans mouths so that you can top up your mobile. Most people don’t think like that.
By 3,000 job losses, I mean, 3,000 people have lost their jobs in education since 2008. I am not including retirements in these as they, of course, were voluntary. A job loss is not compulsory redundancy. Compulsory redundancy is a type of job loss. A job loss is when there was a job but due to enforced changes by the employer, that job is no longer there. Through rises in the pupil-teacher ratio, cuts to home-school liaison posts, cuts to Special Needs posts, cuts to language support, cuts to DEIS schools teacher allocations and making Guidance counsellors part of the schools’ teacher allocations, there have been nearly 3,000 job losses in primary and secondary education in this country.
Longer working hours; Croke Park 1 increased our working time by an hour a week. Not to mention the extra planning and corrections created by larger class sizes. You can snipe away about July and August all you want. I’ll be in work in August by the way, those classes and schemes of work don’t prepare themselves you know. July, I hope, will be nice for everyone. You included.
Vincent with another healthy dose of ignorance.
European averages would work fine for a country which holds european averages in every measureable metric. Ireland isn’t that country.
If you want to compare Ireland with others then why stop at Europe? The OECD figures are more relevant.
And seeing as so many hold Finland as a beacon for education here’s some facts for you…..
Irish teachers at primary level do over 35% more teaching hours than Finland and more than 17% more than the OCED avg. (and yes, that does mean that Finland are well below the OECD average)
At secondary level we’re at little under 9% more contact time than the OECD average and nearly 29% more than the Fins.
Salary wise Finland pays 25% more per contact hour than Ireland for starting salaries. Comparing us OECD sees Irish teachers falling behind the OECD average by about 6.3%.
I will say that I noticed that some of the other indicators (eg. salaries after 15 years) show that at that point we are ahead of the OECD average (bus still behind Finland by a margin of 1-2%).
Still a fan of invoking averages before you have a clue VD?
PS – never get your handkerchiefs monogrammed.
loss of 400 jobs in further education sector alone
. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/protest-calls-for-reversal-of-student-teacher-ratio-increase-1.1372933
No, when your employer is bankrupt he ceases trading, we are in “examinership” with the Troika calling the shots.
Mark- 3,000 teachers did not lose their jobs. The positions were withdrawn.
Wow, Mark. An hour a week extra. Ask someone who’s worried about losing their job in the private sector would they work an extra hour for job security for 12 months….
“positions withdrawn” you’re funny Vincent – but not funny enough to make SNA’s etc smile I’m sure.
Now, get some guts and keep googling for EU & OECD averages…. you may as well as you have no reply so far to my direct reply to you elsewhere in this section.
Tony- I’m in awe of your rapier like wit. Stunning stuff. You’re an inspiration. Only an intellectual colossus like your good self could have extrapolated VD from Vincent Dolan. If only we could bottle that ingenuity and sell it all our economic woes would be over. I never mentioned Finland. You did. That’s Cherry picking. Unlike citing the overall EU average.
Christine- will 400 teachers end up on the dole? No? Well then.
Bank employees seem okay Vincent … Aided and abetted by the MoF …
I cited finland and the OECD average which is (as explained but conveniently side-stepped by you – as usual) far more relevant.
Now, I assume you know what the contact hours and salaries are along the most relevant indicators are in europe – do the math and prove me wrong.
I challenge you to find it an provide reliable links – I expect you won’t say a word in reply that will acknowledge this post.
Just know that in the mean time it hasn’t gone unnoticed that the longest reply that you have managed is to avoid giving an answer on something valid.
Have some integrity and try admitting that you may actually be wrong.
Yes Vincent by losing their jobs some of them will end up on the dole, more will go to Australia/Canada. Our school is losing 10 teachers (out of about 80).
You can engage in semantics all you want Vincent, it only serves to highlight the weakness of your argument. There are 3,000 less people working in education in 2013 than there were in 2008. Positions being withdrawn are JOB LOSSES. In January 2009, 1,900 jobs were lost in Dell in Limerick. A scandal, and the nation was rightly outraged. 3,000 people lose their jobs in education, many of whom were working with the most vulnerable in our schools and not so much as a whimper from government, employers or the media. That and your comments are symptomatic of what is damaging education in this country.
Those extra 33 hours done by every teacher in the country didn’t stop the 3,000 job losses. Job losses are not a uniquely private sector phenomenon.
To make savings just give the veteran teachers fantastic retirement deals. It might cost a bit but savings would be made by hiring NQTs on much lower salaries. There will be a drop in people signing on, savings in welfare and new blood will bring new ideas and teaching techniques into the classroom. A win win for all!
Im an NQT this deal has no effect on me because ill still be jobless. Im off to england in september.
If the economy ever recovers, private sector pay will increase fairly quickly, the public sector will be stuck with lousy deals like 3.5% over 3 years if lucky. Just sick of begrudgers. The public sector workers, binmen, teachers etc. did not create this fiasco but will be paying for it for a long time. Oh how the worm has turned, it’s not that long since I remember friends in private industry laughing at the ‘pauper’s wages’ in the public sector, “I wouldn’t get out of bed for that!”, now it seems all public workers are overpaid and underworked. It’s a cycle people, life is too short for this us and them bullshit, get over it.
The difference is pay and conditions in the private sector are governed by market forces,and are ajusted accordingly,its the opposite in the PS where there is no such flexibility and rigidity is the norm.
This can be dealt with if elected representatives had some leverage over Senior public servants, who seem to control the government quite a bit. Governments come and go, Senior public servants stay, if they don’t ship to Brussels for higher wages. Remember Kevin Cardiff?
Should be interesting to see how Govt. Deals with this,
Cuts followed by strikes. Would rather just keep working and earning to be honest but the ASTI have never known how to do things really. If INTO accept it’ll be like 2001 all over again and we should just shut up and get on with it. If INTO reject there’ll be withdrawal from Croke Park 1, other work to rule activities and possible strikes because we will all get cut from July 1st. We’ll be vilified by the public all summer, and probably rightly so as many would see it, and it will all end up very ugly.
You’d think we’d learn from the Bus Eireann dispute.
The ASTI strikes of 2001 followed by the work to rule on supervision gained the S&S allowance, hence they were successful.
I would foresee a major turn on the work to rule, the removal of all ‘yard’ supervision would mean the closure of schools without teachers going on strike due to health and safety.
Long term the gov can’t afford to bring in lay supervisors like they did in 2002 (despite it being a disaster in most schools).
In comparison to what the union were looking for it was nothing. For work we were already doing and it was opt in, not an unconditional pay rise.
I would not have dreamt at the start of walking a picket line for what little we got for it.
Wait till the summer holidays kick in then implement the cuts,
Let’s see them strike while on holidays for two months,
Boom…. Good one Barry
Whoops, actually three months!
Of course they could threaten to not correct stuff, but they loose out on the EXTRA pay they get doing this on top of their holiday pay!
But do they really want to be the dicks that didn’t give somebody their leaving cert results, are they also willing to miss out on all that extra pay?
I very much doubt it.
Thats a slam dunk Barry.
Actually Barry, it could easily result in a late return to school in September if there were a strike.
Don’t forget to sign on tomorrow Barry.
Barry I feel it’s my duty to tell you it’s lose not loose…I won’t charge you for the correction of your spelling…SEE..we’re not all bad!!!!!!
Kat- That’s very clever. Can I run an economic principle past you, please? When your employer is bankrupt and running a loss, you need to suck it up and take a pay cut OR lose your job. How does that grab you?
If the gov is so broke how about we tax the over 100k by an extra few percent, maybe try to get a better return than 2% corpo tax off the multinationals or how about a cut in the 600 million we donate to foreign charities.
Those solutions don’t fit with the FG plan, Denis O’Brien would be angry with Enda and FG would lose their main contributor.
Still repeating the same lie hoping people will start to believe you ‘vincent’?
Good man, Eric. Send those foreign multi-nationals off to another country. Inspired idea. You’re a genius.
Hey Vincent… I know your only a troll but I have to ask, do you get weak at the knees at the thoughts of PS cuts?? I’d say your at your computer with your pants around your ankles…
That behaviours frowned upon in FGHQ where vincent works…..unless merkels on the telly of course.
Morally bankrupt moreso, matched only by their incompetancy and corruptive tendencies…..just like their shit-puppet peers and burdensome, failed casino Banksters!
Try giving Vincent some statistics lads – his mind melts then…
How many private sector businesses are dependent on contracts from the public sector? The money that pays those workers is coming from the public purse too.
I’m no genius Vincent but I’m not small minded enough to think that docking people’s pay and hoping for compulsory redundancies is a good thing. Imagine you’re here gloating that many people and families will suffer wage cuts.
Also, If you had any notion grounded in real life experiences you would know that multi nationals move to countries for many reasons, not solely corpo tax rates, so your snide comment about sending multi nationals off can be stuck you know where. I’ve many good friends that work for multinational and I’ve no desire to see them lose their jobs, you and me Vincent are worlds apart.
Vincent you are a beligerent begrudger & blatantly clueless in your supposed knowledge of the teaching profession. Complete a Degree, followed by a Masters, then a Higher Diploma in Education & finally apply for a job in a secondary school. Now if you’re fortunate enough to get some hours teaching, spend a day in a challenging classroom & then come back to inform us of our supposedly facile, well-compensated jobs that deserve further cutbacks!!! Ignorance is bliss for those on the outside looking in.
I’m led to believe and am open to correction but because of the sectoral nature of the these talks at lrc that those that accept willl be away with their deal and those that reject will be on their own against the government. Any know otherwise?
That’s my understanding of it.
Waste of time unless the INTO follow suit. And their leaders aren’t. I won’t get excited unless all are united. If we are not then we’re getting cut.
Oh dear. Hope the teachers don’t go on strike for the whole of July & August
Dat’s sooo funny…. derp…..
me fein
That a new political party? Is it headed by Micheal Lowry? Is he the only member?
Just when you think it is “game over” and public sector workers are about to roll over and accept CP-2 dressed up in a new box called HaddRd-1, they say “hold on a minute, Enda’s little Rottweiler – maybe we will accept the challenge to a bare-knuckle fight after all”
Maybe it is more “Crouching tiger, hidden dragon” that “Ba ba black sheep”
Well, well, well.
:-))
” to scrap teachers’ substitution allowances, worth just under €1,600 a year, but had proposed to add this amount to teachers’ annual salaries through pay increases in 2016 and 2017″
Are the current substitution allowances taxable?
The Oireachtas really needs to deal with the ridiculous allowances that the TD\Senators have also
Supervision and substitution allowances are ridiculous?
These are items which were done out of goodwill many years ago and when it became an issue it was dealt with.
Would you give up lunchtimes and other work time to do a shift supervisors job for free?
In reality, this should be a part of core pay and written into contracts as such. And if it had been, then you would hear absolutely nothing about it now.
From what I understand (I’m not a teacher), the supervision/substitution allowance is not only taxable but is also pensionable, i.e., can be legitimately regarded as part of pay. It would not appear to be an allowance in the true sense of the word.
thanks Penfan – so if you are correct that was essentially a 50% cut.
@Tony – “Supervision and substitution allowances are ridiculous? ” .. assume that wasn’t a response to me? If it was in core pay – its taxable so maybe that the crux of the issue maybe?
Look @ Kildare Street for savings – my local TD on the dart line is on 800 a month plus free parking to attend the dail. Equates to 80-90 euros a day – tax free. An allowance and a half this is, Till this is removed I can’t take TDs seriously – not one of them – some I respect yes and Eamonn Maloney is top man in this regard. My court jester issued a statement on the creches today – a statement to promote himself and state the obvious. Teachers offer a lot more than these fools – cuts in the wrong place again
@gerbeen – I thought your final sentence in the first comment was associating it in with what you called the ridiculous allowances for senators etc.
In reality, it’s core pay – it’s pensionable and taxable.
Of course they do Had-Road 2 will be better
Hopefully the government has the balls to see this over the line. Benchmarking put these salaries & conditions way out of sync with the private sector so what’s being asked is very little in the normal scheme of things.
ASTI executive rejecting the new blablabla road proposals but not re-balloting. Will this be deemed illegal?
No – why would it? They are representing their members’ wishes. As I’m sure you’ve already read in the article, 84 & 86% of those balloted rejected CP2 and there hasn’t been any significant change here.
Tony giving us back the substitution and supervision money in 2017/18 and in particular making it part of the pay scale rather than an allowance is a pretty big difference in my view might change more than a few minds.
I think the teachers need to wake up and smell reality, everyone else seems to be, finally.
What’s the reality?
No SNAs, leaking roofs, thirty plus in a class that fits around twenty five, thirty computers for 800 kids, labs falling apart with old chemicals, sports facilities that belong I the seventies, one printer/copier for a whole school, broken chairs and doors, wages falling and all the young brains being lured to England and the Middle East. That’s the reality.
I have walked into classrooms where nothing works except the students pens. If you went to do a presentation in the private sector and everything was bust there would be some changes. The students are losing out as there is no such thing as interactive tech lessons in this place. Education is the future and people here will be the ones screaming in the future when their little johnny can’t spell.
Ah yeah, but don’t cut pay or allowances.
Pay peanuts get monkeys. All the top of the class innovative teachers are in the Middle East and England where the pay is better. This will is to the detriment of the Irish classroom as the new teaching methods will take longer to bring in here.
Here we go again the annual teacher moan in if the job is so bad how come students are walking over each other to become qualified go become a coal miner or something .
There are undeniable pros and cons for both teaching jobs and others in private sector but to add balance … Running a business -work( as do most of my employees ) 7.30 am- 8/9 pm , 2 weeks hols( plus Christmas ) , worry where next contract will come from and when it does will it actually be worthwhile ( it’s very competitive), see the worry in my employees’ eyes , meanwhile have to ensure I comply with obligations regarding rates, rent,Vat returns,payroll ,holidays,working times and all legislation, and when it all ends in 20 more years no guaranteed pension – in fact no pension and yes thankfully we are still turning a profit, paying taxes and keeping people employed .Not moaning but just saying there are challenges on both sides of this argument.
Its ironic that strikes and rejection are two words identified with the public sector right now, when they are rhe only ones guarenteed security, and for everyone else its just a matter of facing reallity and just getting on with it.
Haddington Road is in the Beggar’s Bush area. It should be called the “Beggar’s Bush Proposal”
Did the 2nd.level teachers really think they were getting another ATM type deal? Presume any strike action ‘ll take after after the 3 months paid holidays
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/hundreds-of-secondary-teachers-on-100k-29292461.html
God bless them!
371 school principals. The managers. Did you even read it?
Oh I see, and our taxes aren’t used to pay them right? Well that’s okay then. Managers in a failing education system undoubtedly deserve 100k a year.
Out of the thousands of schools they will be the top schools. Princials never teach anymore and the vice-principal will deal with the teachers. They are managers that seek funding and meetings and so on. Most managers in the private sector are paid much more than the staff. Yes everyone that pays their taxes pay them. What’s your point? The parents whose kids achieve great results will probably tell you they are worth it. The system is failing because of funding (special needs assistants fired, largest class sizes in Europe …..) and following the US/British system
have your say