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AN AMENDMENT TO the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill to include a provision allowing for the termination of pregnancies in cases of inevitable miscarriage has been defeated at committee stage.
TDs on the Oireachtas select sub-committee on Health are considering the dozens of amendments tabled to the legislation that provides for abortion in circumstances where there is a real and substantial risk to the life of a woman, including suicide, which passed the Dáil last night.
An amendment proposed by TD Seamus Healy had proposed to allow for a termination in cases where a doctor had determined that an inevitable miscarriage was taking place.
It was voted down by a margin of seven votes to one (Healy’s own), with Sinn Féin’s Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin and Roscommon independent Denis Naughten abstaining.
Another amendment, to include a provision allowing for terminations where the foetus has no chance of survival outside of the womb was defeated at the committee stage last night.
Campaigners and some legal experts had argued that the amendments were in line with the Constitution, but Health Minister James Reilly told members that that his advice from the Attorney General was that there was no “constitutional certainty”. According to the Minister:
The purpose of this Bill is to clarify existing rights. I have to take the advice available to me. For these reasons, I can’t accept the amendments.
Savita Halappanavar was deemed to be undergoing an inevitable miscarriage at Galway University Hospital last October. She and her husband requested a termination during the ordeal, but it was denied.
- additional reporting by Hugh O’Connell
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How, when “Savita Halappanavar was deemed to be undergoing an inevitable miscarriage ” can they vote down the provision to allow for terminations in these instances?? Wasn’t her death the catalyst behind the whole revision of the legislation?? Or did I miss something completely?
Her death happened at the time that the Expert Report was due. It was already in progress following the ECHR ruling in the ABC vs Ireland case. There was no mention of Savita in that report as it had already been completed and was due on Minister Reillys desk. It was just tragically coincidental timing.
Incidentally, the Expert Report suggested that fatal foetal abnormalities be included in the legislation as the TFMR ladies were what was in the news when they got together.
The public anger and disbelief following Savita’s death was politically distracted by the proportionally irrelevant mental health/suicide/pregnancy debate. This is the real issue, and unfortunately the lives of women are still being placed at risk; or at the very least subjected to unnecessary anguish and trauma.
I completely agree with you David. Its unreal how even now when the new legislation is under “intense” discussion in the Oireachtas, that new measures which, if implemented, could prevent another case similar to that of Savita from happening again, are being sidelined and rejected. Its unbelievable.
You should be careful man. Your words could be construed in any which way. Savita is central to the discussion, whether you like it or not. Go grow yourself a vagina and figure your shit out.
No we will not forget about Savita. She died due to our constitutional laws, even though her miscarriage was inevitable. This should have been one of the amendments that it was inexcusable NOT to pass. Once it is clear that the foetus is going to die, the ultimate priority should be the health and mental wellbeing of the mother, not the foetus. How on earth can any doctor refuse a termination when a miscarriage is already underway? The foetus will not survive, to leave it be will only compromise the mother. Love them both, eh Brian?
She didn’t die because of our Constitution. Get your facts right
She did die because of our constitution, if it did not have an amendment saying a foetus is equal to a woman they would not have waited several days for the foetal heartbeat to stop before removing it, in the meantime the infection took hold and by the time her womb was evacuated it was too late to save her. Savita died because our constitution gave equal rights to the 17 week old non-sentient, miscarrying foetus inside her. She died in pain and fear and I can assure you that the unconscious foetus felt nothing. Dr Peter Boylan and the inquiry into her death found that the lack of early termination of her INEVITABLE miscarriage contributed to her death.Best practice in other countries is to remove the miscarrying foetus BEFORE infection sets in and the situation becomes life threatening. They left her cervix open for three days while constantly monitoring the foetal heartbeat, this is how she became infected and died. The 8th amendment to the constitution is directly responsible.
You get your facts right.
^This, +100
Emma Hill: – The death of Savita Halappanavar case has nothing to do with this legislation. The legislation “The Protection of Life During Pregnancy” was supposed to be for the X case, and that is what it is supposed to be legislating for. Although I agree that I can’t comprehend why they would not include “inevitable miscarriage”, and the cases of rape/incest, and fatal foetal abnormalities. This Government is not competent, and we seem to be an object of worldwide ridicule because of Ireland’s medieval abortion laws, with the same misogynistic regime as El Salvador, and a few other Catholic countries.
Lovely, Brian. You are showing yourself up as a really heartless man, with not an ounce of compassion.
Margaret Cantwell: – I understand that the legislation directly refers to the X case rather than Savita Halappanavar, but you cannot deny that her unfortunate and unnecessary death led to more and more discussion on the matter. It helped re-ignite peoples awareness of our archaic laws, and the needless suffering women endure as a result of this legislation, or lack thereof.
After the Anglo tapes hit the headlines, the very NEXT DAY there was government TDs kite flying the possibility of rerunning the oireachtas enquiry referendum. Wheres the TDs today calling for a referendum to allow doctors in this country to treat women carrying unviable foetuses with the same compassion vets are allowed show to bloody livestock FFS?
This is disgraceful. The issue of pregnancies being ‘incompatible with life’ is heartbreaking for families, and our politicians stick their moral, conscience, righteous heads in the sand and pretend it doesn’t happen. In defeating this amendment that is what they are saying, ‘this issue does not need to be addressed’.
Elected TDs should not be allowed have abstentions. Implies they have no idea on the subject matter they are voting on.
Jesus wept…so in many respects this is a matter of one step forward/sideways one step backwards/sideways. Maybe by the end of the century medical decisions will be made based upon medical and scientific knowledge and not religious hokum. I pity women of child bearing age in this country, I apologise to them for having to endure the perilous journey pregnancy is, knowing the state considers them 2nd class citizens.
What about legal hokum because that is what is the problem here… but sure… have a cheap kick at religious people for your ego while you are at it. Foolish statement.
That’s a cruel decision.
Bizarre even.
Well if these amendments had of been included and the likes of YD of the life institute took a constitutional challenge (which they would) on the basis that its unconstitutional it would be a Huge headache and give these groups ammunition! We don’t want that!
Then lets avoid the ‘headache’ and call a referendum. I think the majority of Irish people want a compassionate, medical, modern and common sense approach to abortion. Instead we rely on old men talking about their personal conscience instead of the good of the people.
Great pity and shows a total lack of compassion for those involved.
Right. So. Referendum then, please. Quick.
It’s becoming clearer to me what this is actually about…
Psychiatrists refusing abortions. With a Minister overseeing the process.
What is the purpose of this… To prolong suffering of the mother who will eventually loose her baby?? Leave her waiting every day wondering if she will loose the baby today… Disgraceful!
oh well done :- lets make women suffer.
At a time when a women has been told that her pregnacy is not viable for any number of reasons:- a moment in her life that must be absoultly terrible our TDs have said.
Nope we will make sure no one will be allowed to do anything to quicken/end the process and maybe just maybe easy some of the suffering.
Also I cant see how the consitution prevents this. If the constitution protects life and that life is either ended already or will soon end what is it protecting?
Robert, the only thing the constitution is protection is the beliefs of misogynist old men and biddies … and of course they don’t want to offend the almighty woman-hating church!
Then a plague on them and all their houses. A stone would weep to hear the testimony of these ladies as to what they and their husbands had been through.
I get heartened when I see young people getting so involved in this debate.I think it is a bit useless in a way having Politicians, some of whom are well passed their sell by date, making these important decisions on what Women should do with their bodies. I am 66 and it only feels like 5 minutes ago that Women had to have sex with their Husband whether they wanted it or not, If they did not ‘submit’ to the husbands demand for sex they committed a sin and had to confess it in the confession box! For this big sin they might get a decade of the rosary to say to get forgiveness from god, or some other such penance!This of course is one of the reasons why so many women years ago, had 12 or more children before they were 35. Many of these Women died young and no wonder! Then to add insult to injury they were not allowed to go to mass or receive communion until they were churched This was a cleansing of the soul because they had sex, got pregnant, and this was whether they wanted to or not!!! I could go on! I get so mad at these politicians and priests who think they have the right ‘examine their consciences’ at this stage. Just let them look at our history of how women were and still are treated in the country and say once and for all ‘LETS MOVE ON’
‘
I agree with you, Mary. And it was not that long ago that this backward country finally “allowed” women to use contraception.
Pi** up in a brewery?
This country is clueless.
I wonder are a lot of those loons hoping jp2 comes back and does his third ‘miracle’ (see next story down) and saves these inevitable miscarriages and all the pain and anguish they bring these poor families.
Wow. The rest of the western world must be absolutely gob-smacked at this whole farce. Cannot believe I live in country where women in a terrible situation are going to be forced to endure more heart ache and pain . Its barbaric. Think its time to jump this sinking ship and move forward with the rest of the world elsewhere.
Ashamed to say I’m Irish, there’s just so much wrong with this hole of a country
I don’t think you should be ashamed to be Irish.
There are many social and political institutions which are backwards in this country, but it’s taken a lot of growing up for Ireland to even get where it is today on issues such as LGBT rights, abortion etc. We’re moving in the right direction, and the reason we haven’t caught up with some of the free-thinking world is that we were held back for so long.
Be proud to be Irish. Be proud of where we are because of where have had to come from. Be happy that we’re getting (some) legislation down, and remember the politicians that tried to block it. Teach tolerance, respect, and freedom of choice to your children. We are far from squashing fundamentalism in this country, but we’re only a generation away from having the majority needed to implement a society that collectively reflects progressive thinking on social, moral and individual rights issues.
Ronan, while I really do agree with you and I do think Ireland is progressing, I can’t feel proud to be Irish while my country could potentially let me die on a hospital bed for no good reason other than the non-sentient, non-thinking contents of my womb are considered my equal.
I know that if anything went wrong with my pregnancy that I would not receive all the necessary treatment to save me and even this pathetic legislation will not guarantee that as doctors would have to wait for a ‘substantive risk to my life as opposed to my health’ so by the time they are sure they can terminate because I am at death’s door it may be too late. The honest truth is that I have some minor health problems which could be made worse by pregnancy, I don’t feel secure about being pregnant in this country.
We have had the 8th amendment for a generation now, I was a small child at the time and had no say on how it would potentially directly affect me, the present generation of women of childbearing age need change now, we need a say, we need a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment, we can’t afford to wait another generation.
I couldn’t have put it better myself Kelly. Well said
Me too Kelly. My health would be permanently affected for the worse if I were to become pregnant, it could even lead to a life or death situation, and that scares the hell out of me.
Even when all this legislation is passed it would have no effect on the fact that pregnancy could leave me permanently disabled, this country doesn’t care about that.. Apparently I should be glad to have the opportunity to grant life to another being whatever the cost to me – whether I wish to be a mother or not.. Why people can’t see how sick that is is beyond me.
(And for the record pro lifers – I use contraception, and have been in a committed relationship for 10 years so please don’t tell me I should refrain from sex)
Ronan, how can a woman be proud to be Irish in this god-forsaken country? I have a daughter and a grand-daughter, whose lives may be endangered because of this flawed legislation. Don’t you think that misogynistic, catholic old men have done enough damage to this country, (including the catholic old paedophile priests, and the Magdalene Laundries?) What is there to be proud about.? This is indeed a dark day in Irish history, one that will come back to haunt us again and again.
It’s sad that a bunch of men who have no medical knowledge or even advice are allowed to vote on a subject of life or death.
Get a committee of the most senior doctors and experts and let them vote. This is a matter of medical treatment not consciousness.
Is there no way to test whether it would be constitutional without a case being brought before the courts?
Ask the women from TFMR to testify as thought it were a real case if needs be, just get an answer and get on with legislation.. The way we treat these women in their time of need is disgraceful.
So in short if there is some kind of legal abortion in Ireland no one who needs one will be allowed to get it in Ireland unless it will kill you, and once that is proven the mother is dead. “your baby will die or is already dead but you must carry it until you give birth to a corpse” religion has no place in politics. If people didn’t push our government condoms would still be illegal here, our politicians remind me so much of our beloved Catholic church, constantly pulling us back into a past where they had more power. We are so backwards and corrupt that it’s painful reading the news everyday, cowards and gangsters.
Can someone tell me the point of calling those maternity hospital heads to the enquiries now?
Seven more fools.
Steve it is not up to us to provide you with the stats. It is up to the HSE to provide you with the details if you want them.
I am so disgusted that this Amendment has been defeated. What kind of misogynistic clowns do we have in this disgraceful Government? So, cases similar to Savita are going to be allowed to happen again, and again? I don’t know how the people who voted NO to this very important amendment can sleep at night. I fear for the lives of my daughter, and my grand-daughter (when she reaches child-bearing age), because of the lack of respect for pregnant woman in crisis pregnancies in this.
“THE PROTECTION OF LIFE DURING PREGNANCY” Legislation – is a farce! What is any woman of child-bearing age going to gain from it! … NOTHING! Why is the Government wasting their own, and every else’s time and all the energy spent on drawing it up, when nothing real and substantial will be included in it to save a pregnant woman’s life. Is not a case like Savita, who died from a prolonged miscarriage, considered a case where a woman’s life would be in danger? (prolonged miscarriage is dangerous, and can lead to sepsis and/or haemmhorage). This Government do not deserve the name, they have no right to put women’s lives in danger. A woman’s private and personal reproductive health (pregnancy, miscarriage, abortion, life saving interventions, etc.) should not be in the hands of an arrogant, ignorant and incompetent Government, and neither should this aspect of life be dictated by a misogynistic Church. It should be a private, personal, family matter between the individual woman and her doctor/obstetrician.
It’s sad, and desperately so, that TFMR can’t be handled in the PLPB, but it simply can’t. A second year law student could see that to insert it would be a breach of the 8th Amendment. The bill would fall at the first HC or SC test – if it even got that far. All the PLPB is allowed to do is take account of, and address, “X”. Nothing more can it do. If TFMR is to be allowed (and I believe of course that it should) there’s every chance it would require a referendum – and I’ll tell you this for nothing – that referendum would be highly unlikely to pass. The ‘not an inch’ element like Youth Defence and their ilk would see to that.
A referendum on TMFR, rape, incest and possibly a woman’s health would most likely pass, PJ. Most people (over 70%) support terminations on these grounds, and they see Youth Defence for the crowd of fundamentalist fruitcakes which they are.
clare daly say fatal foetal abnormalities may affect around 1500 a year anybody know the _original source_ of that number
Anecdotally I know two people that had to go through that pain and suffering because Irish law would not allow a termination. That’s two too many.
This country forces people to give birth to dead children. And our politicians are essentially refusing to do something about it. Bloody cowards.
What about pregnancies which doctors say will lead to a child who has an array of disabilities and won’t live longer than a few minutes, but then result in a baby with a small hole in the heart who is now five years old and about to go to school? How many babies like that would be aborted if they agreed to abortion in cases of non viable pregnancies? I personally know a family the above has happened to and they never considered abortion. Doctors aren’t always right and letting nature take its course is best if the mother’s life is not at risk.
That family you are refering to Sarah should sue their doctor because that is the most ridiculous diaganosis ever.
Letting nature is best for mother ??????? says who Sarah??? You have no idea
While I agree that this situation does happen, is it not only fair that a mother/father at least have the option, if they so desire, to terminate a possible unviable pregnancy?
Well there are over one hundred families that have been in contact with us and not one of them received a “POSSIBLE UNVIABLE DIGANOSIS” we were given 1oo% clear diagnosis using methods such as CVS and AMNIO testing there are no ifs buts mistakes.
Most of us got 2nd,3rd and even 4th opinions.
I said letting nature takes its course is best if the mother’s life is not at risk.
Are you trying to tell me that this misdiagnosis is the only time it’s ever happened? That is an extremely naive perspective in my opinion.
But it is an opinion and one I’m entitled to give. I won’t say ‘you have no idea’ since I actually RESPECT that you have your own opinion
This wasn’t a possible diagnosis. They were told outright to prepare themselves that the baby would only live a few minutes.
well as i said previously if that was the case and the baby was born with a hole in the heart I would sue the doctor the hospital and everyone that gave that EXTREMELY serious misdiagnosis.
You said letting nature take its course is best for the mother ???? What mother ?? Certainly not me or the other many many women I have met.
You can’t actually say I have no idea becasue I have lived it and I support many many many women families and couples that have also lived it.
You are of course entitled to an opinion but not entitled to misinform and scarmonger people.
I am not misinforming anyone about anything. What I have written about actually happened so how am I misinforming anybody? I was not intending to scaremonger at all, I was simply telling the story I know of because people are entitled to see all sides.
What did the family do Sarah with this serious malpractise from the medical proffessionals involved in such a serious misdiagnosis ???
Sorry but I’m not getting in to this with you, as you are clearly now insinuating I made it up. Not worth the fight. I clearly have ‘no idea’ as you said
I never said you were making the story up I do believe that you have been misinformed.
And its important to realize the difference.
I won’t insinuate it, Sarah, I will say it. You are making it up. You are one of a band of people who come on here, all of whom have ‘friends’ who have been in appalling situations relating o a pregnancy, or are gay, but have come out the other side with the help of I don’t know what.
You can believe what you want but I actually laughed when I read your comment. Why on earth would I make it up??!
I have personal experience ,with my step son.His mother was told he had no chance due to a heart condition .Worse I witnessed her being screamed at by a doctor in Liverpool because she refused to abort. He was born with a minor heart condition and Down Syndrome .In the last ten years I have spoken to hundreds of parents in the UK ,who have had similar problems.Worse the pressure put on them to abort is extraordinary .
That is disgraceful Jeff I really hope those involved complained etc
Thankfully none of us in our group were ever forced or screamed at to have a termination neither were we coerced advised or persuaded to end the pregnancy.
Any doctor who forces a family to make a decision either way should be sanctioned by a medical board. That should include doctors who say things to women who have decided to end the pregnancy that “natural is best.”
Sarah, I see where you are coming from. There are many stories of pregnancies beating the odds and the diagnosis. And no-one is proposing that pregnancies be aborted without the consent of a mother.
But really, think about it. It’s beating the odds. People should have the choice not to take that 0.1% chance and further their heartache.
If the would-be parents need to bring the pregnancy to term for the sake of their conscience, they should do that. Maybe they’ll get their miracle. Most won’t.
This argument is about that choice. Some people will roll the dice with their emotions and hope they get their miracle, others can’t gamble with their already tortured minds and take that longshot
Jeff Kennedy I refuse to believe one word of what you just said. The very idea that Doctors were screaming at a woman to abort! her baby! What a load of bull s..t! And where did you meet the 100′s of women who were being pressured into having an abortion???????? You could’nt make it! Oh sorry Jeff you could!
Mary you have no idea what your taking about .In the UK bringing a suspected disabled child to term is virtually a criminal act .Here’s a pic of the fantastic young man I was taking about
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/998842_10200190206146640_263695376_n.jpg
I agree with most people when it comes to abortion ,but It is being forced on some people ,no matter what you believe.
Jeff I am sorry but you picked the wrong words when you said ‘you have no idea what you are talking about’ I wish you were right, but you are not. Last year my daughter was expecting a baby which she had tried for 4 years to have. Herself and her Husband were given the awful diagnosis that the baby had trisomy 13 + a large cystic figroma. This was devastating news for her and her husband, as they had shared the good news of her pregnancy with all their family and friends. This included her 2 sons who were 5 and 9 at the time. She had 2 more scans at the hospital and there were 2 options, to wait for a spontaneous miscarriage (google the condition and tell me you would want a woman in your life to go through this) or to go to England. She chose the latter because the 1st option was not really an option at all. We took that awful journey with her where she had another scan which had the same outcome as the scans she had done in Dublin. Our whole family mourned the loss of this little baby girl who we named Skye.The remains of little Skye had to be left in Liverpool Womens Hospital, on foreign soil, and none of us will ever get over the pain. My daughter and the rest of us who went with her were so impressed by the way she was treated, and it added so much more sorrow to the fact that she could not get this treatment in her own country. Putting this situation into the same sentence as having a Downs Syndrome baby is just not on. My daughter would have never terminated a baby with Downs or any other viable handicap. I have said this publicly so many times, as did all my family, I still wonder how so many people are still so lacking in the knowledge of what a diagnosis of ‘not compatible with life means’ I think when you join in a debate like this you need to be armed with the facts. I agree with you, your stepson looks like a great Guy and I hope he ls living a happy and contented life. Our little Skye would never have had this option.
You did not answer the question. Do not put up an internet link and claim it as personal experience. Where did YOU personally meet these ‘hundreds of people’ who confided in you?
Jeff Kennedy you have mot answered the woman’s question. It is simply not good enough to post an internet link and claim it as personal experience. Where did.YOU meet these ‘hundred of people’ who confided on you?
The hundred families that I am refering to have contacted us through TFMR and we also have a support group called Leanbh Mo Chroí. There are at least forty of the stories on our facebook page all with real names etc.
Sheik I know your question was not directed at me but I just wanted to clarify for others x
my my my! i have read some bullsh!t in my time, but some of these posts take the biscuit – some of you are clearly the most ignorant people on earth. (or perhaps just childless) – if a woman, is told, that her baby is not compatible with life, what do you expect her to do! of course she’s going to do the most humane thing possible and have a termination. of course, and it doesn’t matter how many a year opt for it, what matters is that to opt for such a procedure Will be the most heart-wrenching decisions of that woman’s life (be it 2 or 2000 – the stats don’t matter). she should be able to have the comfort of her friends and family to help her through.
at home, here! in Ireland!
I would like to see a statistic on how many suicidal women get abortions each year and compare it to a figure for how many women are forced to go to England each year to terminate unviable pregnancies. Then we would see what the real priority is.
God forbid that those legislating on behalf of everyone else should find themselves in either of the two situations. Since the majority of the decision makers are men and the majority of those affected are women it does beg the question “what gives them the right to decide?”
2 is very different 1500, asking a politician to back up a a stat is no insult to those they had to go through the experience
I would ask the TFMR campaign, as I know they did research into it.
I did they just got back to me ‘if you contact the Dublin Maternity Hospitals they will provide you with details’
Well, if you are so keen on nit picking, why don’t you do just that?
asking for a source for a stat a politician used in parliamentary committee meeting is not nit picking
Steve, email Clare Daly.
she got the stat from the TFMR
Why don’t you just make it up Steve.? You are pro “life” after all
you do realise that citing a source behind a stat enhances its credibilty, this is what I was trying to elicit
have your say